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我们（不）信任中国【第一次大翻求指点】
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OP-ED COLUMNISTOP-ED专栏作家&& In China We (Don’t) Trust我们（不）信任中国（标题就直翻了，不过这句恶搞自美钞上的“in God we trust”）龙腾网
作者：THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN（请大家记住Friedman先森的名字，他会多次出现的，大家也亲切地叫他Tom）
Published: September 11, 2012
Hangzhou, China
（绿字为译者吐槽，蓝字为译者补充）
One of thestandard lines about China’s economy is that the Chinese are good at copying,but they could never invent a Hula-Hoop. It’s not in their DNA, we are told,and their rote education system reinforces that tendency. I’m wondering aboutthat: How is it that a people who invented papermaking, gunpowder, fireworksand the magnetic compass suddenly only became capable of assembling iPods? I’mwondering if what’s missing in China today is not a culture of innovation butsomething more basic: trust.
中国经济的标准特征之一就是山寨，不过他们连一个呼啦圈都发明不了。有人说，他们的基因里就没有创新，而他们死记硬背的教育体系又强化了这一倾向。我很好奇：那些发明了造纸术、火药、烟花和地磁指南针的人怎么突然之间就只能组装iPod了？我想知道今天中国失去的是否不是文化的创新，而是更本质的东西：信任。
When thereis trust in society, sustainable innovation happens because people feel safeand enabled to take risks and make the long-term commitments needed toinnovate. When there is trust, people are willing to share their ideas andcollaborate on each other’s inventions without fear of having their creationsstolen. The biggest thing preventing modern China from becoming an innovationsociety, which is imperative if it hopes to keep raising incomes, is that itremains a very low-trust society.
当一个社会有了诚信，就会有持续的创新，因为人们有安全感，敢于承担风险并给予创新所需的长期承诺。当一个社会有了诚信，人们愿意共享创意并与对方共同合作发明，而不必担心自己的成果被窃取。信任度低是阻碍现代中国成为一个创新型的社会的最大原因，如果想要继续提高收入的话，这个问题迫切需要得到解决。
I’ve beenstruck at how many Chinese businesspeople and investors have volunteered thatpoint to me this week. China is caught in a gap between its old socialstructure of villages and families, which created its own form of trust, and anew system based on the rule of law and an independent judiciary. The CommunistParty destroyed the first but has yet to build the second because it would meanceding the party’s arbitrary powers. So China has a huge trust deficit.
我对于这个星期纷纷向我主动表达这一观点的中国商务人士和投资者之多感到惊讶。中国正在两个局面的过渡之间进退不得：一方面是建立了自己形式的信任的村庄和家庭的旧式社会结构，一方面是建立在法律法规和司法独立上的新系统。GCD摧毁了前一个但没有建立后一个，因为这样就意味着放弃党的专断权。结果中国就有了巨大的信任赤字。
To seewhat happens when you introduce just a little more trust in this society, spenda day, as I just did, participating in the “AliFest” — the annual gathering ofthousands of Chinese entrepreneurs who are linked together in the giant Chinesee-commerce Web . Foundedin 1999, Alibaba says its sales this year could top eBay combined. This happened, in part, because it has built trusted, crediblemarkets of buyers and sellers inside China, connecting consumers, inventors andmanufacturers who would have found it hard to do transactions before.
当你想知道多信任这个社会一点点时会发生什么，那么就试试我做过的，花一天时间去看看“AliFest（阿里巴巴网商年度大会）”，一个有数以千计的中国企业家参加的年度盛会，这些企业家都是电子商务巨头阿里巴巴网站的成员。成立于1999年的阿里巴巴公司表示今天的销售额可能超过eBay和（亚马逊）的业绩总和。会有这样的结果，部分原因是因为阿里巴巴为中国境内的买家、卖家、消费者、发明者和生产厂商建立了一个信任可靠的交易平台；没有这个平台，他们将很难做成交易。
Alibaba hasthree major businesses:
, which togetherconstitute a giant online marketplace where anyone in the world can go to buyor sell anything — from Procter & Gamble selling toothpaste to Chinesecompanies offering their engineering prowess. The Tao companies this year areexpected to move some $150 billion in merchandise between buyers and sellers,mostly in China.
阿里巴巴有三大业务。第一是 (淘宝)（天猫购物网站），它们共同构建了一个巨大的在线购物市场，从Procter & Gamble（宝洁公司）销售的牙膏到中国企业提供的工程技艺，世界上任何人都可以去购买任何东西。淘宝公司今年的商品成交额预计可以达到1500亿美元，其中大部分是在中国。
The , where, if you want to make rubber sandals that play “The StarSpangled Banner,” you click on Alibaba and it will link you with dozens ofChinese shoemakers that will compete for your business.
第二大业务是（阿里巴巴）。如果你像找人制造能够播放“The Star Spangled Banner”（《星条旗永不落》）的橡胶凉鞋，点击阿里巴巴网站，它会为你提供一打中国制鞋商的连接，他们会为了获得你这单生意而进行竞争。
And,lastly, there is Alipay, a Chinese version of PayPal that can enable, forexample, a small Chinese manufacturer in the hinterland to sell its goods to aChinese consumer in Shanghai. The buyer puts his money in escrow with Alibabaand it is released to the seller only when the buyer says he got the goods heordered. Presto: trust. What has been the impact? There are more than 500million Chinese Taobao users and 600 million Alipay accounts.
最后是Alipay（支付宝），中国版的PayPal。举个例子，它能使一家远在中国腹地的不大的制造商把商品卖给上海的消费者。买方把钱交给阿里巴巴进行第三方托管，只有当买方表示他收到了预定的货物时，钱才会被打进卖方的账户。看看吧，这就是诚信。这带来了什么影响呢？中国淘宝用户超过了5亿，支付宝账户超过了6亿。
While herein Hangzhou, I visited the workshop of Robert Luo, the president ofClassic-Maxim, a firm he started to make kitschy wall art for hotels, usingforeign designs. Luo used to drum up sales by flying to trade shows, but, in2006, he got a huge American order through the Alibaba platform, enabling himto greatly expand his business. He has since shifted from doing outsourcedartwork for others to hiring Chinese and foreign artists to produce his ownoriginal designs. “We design so much now” — outdoor art, solar art — and “we’veapplied for so many U.S. patents,” he said.
然而在杭州，我参观了Classic-Maxim（顺企网）董事长Robert Luo（骆云）的工作室，这家公司使用国外设计为宾馆制作简单的装饰画。Robert曾经在世界各处贸易展览之间灰来灰去以招揽生意，但是在2006年通过阿里巴巴平台获得美国一笔巨额订单使他极大地扩展了业务。后来，他一改以前为别人制作外包艺术品的方式，转而雇佣中外艺术家进行独家原创设计。他说，“目前我们设计了极多的作品”——包括户外艺术产品、太阳能艺术产品——“我们已经申请了很多美国专利”。
There aretwo trends to watch from all this: One, argued Ming Zeng, Alibaba’s chiefstrategist, is that Alibaba — which now serves more than 100 million consumersdaily, through 6.5 million retail shops connected to 20 million manufacturers —is, in effect, creating “a virtual combination industrial park and onlinemarketplace,” where anyone in China or abroad can come to invent, collaborateor buy and sell goods or services.
这一切反映了两种趋势：一个就是如阿里巴巴的首席战略官曾鸣所表示的，阿里巴巴——该公司每天为超过1亿顾客服务，现在有650万家零售店，与2000万个生产厂商展开合作，——实际实现了一种虚拟的混合工业园与在线市场的融合，任何中国或者外国人都可以来创造、合作或者买卖商品与服务。
Alibaba,Zeng predicted, will eventually connect in some way with Facebook, Amazon,eBay, Apple, Baidu, LinkedIn and others to create a giant trusted virtual“global commercial grid,” where individuals and companies will offer theirtalents and buy and sell products, designs and inventions.
曾鸣预测，最终阿里巴巴将会通过某种方式和Facebook、亚马逊、eBay、苹果、百度、Linkedin（一家面向商业客户的社交网络（SNS）服务网站）等商家联系在一起，创造一个以信任为基础的巨大的虚拟“全球化的商业网络”，个人及公司将充分发挥自身才能和优势，买卖商品、设计和发明创造。
Eventually,Zeng argued, “every individual will have to find a way to succeed” on thisglobal grid. “National boundaries will offer you no protection.”
最后，曾鸣还提出在这个全球网络中，“每个人都会找到成功之路。国界再不能为你提供贸易保护了，相反只会成为成功的阻碍。”
The othertrend is that the Chinese will be big players on this grid. The creation ofglobal trusted business frameworks like Alibaba is starting to enable a newgeneration of Chinese innovators — who are low cost, but high skilled — toextend their reach. We’ve seen cheap labor out of C now we’re going to seemore cheap genius.
另一个趋势是中国会成为这个网络的大玩家。创立像阿里巴巴这样的全球可信商业框架能够使得低成本，高技能的新一代中国创新者开发潜能。我们已经看到中国有很多廉价劳动力，而将来我们会看到更多不那么昂贵的天才。
Which iswhy Phillip Brown and Hugh Lauder, in a recent essay , arguedthat a big shift of the global labor market is under way, in which “many of thethings we thought could only be done in the West can now be done anywhere inthe world, not only more cheaply but sometimes better.”
这就是为什么Phillip Brown和Hugh Lauder在最近发表在的一篇文章中说，全球的劳动力市场正在发生一场变革，“许多我们认为只能在西方完成的事情，现在可以在世界任何地方实现，不仅成本更为低廉，而且有时更为成功。”
（灯：这真的不是阿里巴巴的软广吗……）————————————————————
Mike Beijing（北京）Sept. 12, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.支持： 70
You'reboth right & wrong. China is lacking both trust & a culture ofinnovation. Both will take time to rebuild. Its clearly possible, as a trip toTaiwan will quickly tell you. Taiwan, just as essentially Chinese as the PRC,is unfailingly polite, immensely creative, and general trustful.

There's notrust in the PRC because so many PRC Chinese make a living by ripping off theirbusiness partners and everyone else that they think can be conned (just checkout advertising veracity, which is consistently & egregiously lacking hereor the numbers & nature of lawsuits clogging the Chinese courts betweenbusiness &partners& where the those without the entrepreneurial drive& creativity are suing the people who actually are building thecompanies).


你的话有对有错。信任和文化创新中国都缺少，这两者都需要时间来重建。台湾之旅会告诉你这是完全有可能的。台湾和PRC一样本质上都是中国，那里的人非常有礼貌、有创意、值得信任。PRC的社会里没有信任因为那么多PRC人以欺诈为生，他们欺骗他们认为可以欺骗的商业伙伴和其他人（去查查你就知道，在中国，广告一贯而异乎寻常得缺乏真实性；或者去看看法院的诉讼，无论是数量上还是性质上都阻碍了中国的法院查出究竟谁在组建公司，是那些没有创业动力的企业“合作伙伴”，还是那些有创造力却被起诉的人）。
A fewyears ago we asked MBA students at China's top business school at PekingUniversity if they would be interested in a class on Business Ethics. Theanswer was a resounding &No Way&. Why? Because, they said, when theylooked around at national leaders, both political & business, theyperceived that ethics were an impediment to success.
几年前，我们问中国顶级商学院北京大学的MBA学生是否对有关商业道德的课程感兴趣，他们的回答是响亮的“不”。为什么？他们说，因为他们环顾四周、看到政治和经济方面的国家领导人时，他们察觉道德是成功的绊脚石。
This wasyears before Bo XiLai showed how greedy some powerful people in China havebecome.

Lest you think I'm just spouting nonsense based on lack ofunderstanding of China & its people, I've lived in the PRC for over 20years, have a successful business in China, & have many Chinese friends andfamily. They largely (and privately) agree with me. It's a very hot topic inChina today.
这是BXL告诉世人中国一些有权势的人会变得如何贪婪之前的事了。为了免得你认为我只是在对中国与其人民缺乏了解的接触上大放厥词，我已经在中国居住超过20年了，我在中国的生意非常成功，有家庭，有很多中国朋友。他们大多（私下里）同意我的观点。在今天的中国，这是个很热门的话题。
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grooves California（加利福尼亚）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m.支持数： 63
After writinga story (real or not. I do not trust you much, Mr. Friedman) about the lack oftrust in China and therefore the absence of innovation, you owe your readersthe next story: the disappearance of trust in the U.S. and, therefore thedescent of the U.S. into a second rate country. Impossible in the U.S. today totrust anything written in newspapers. Impossible to trust in the U.S. anypolitician. They keep trying to make us believe the constant lies they utter tothe public, and they will never admit guilt. Impossible in the U.S. to trusteven scientists.

在写了这篇有关在中国信任的缺失和其导致的创新的缺乏的报道后（不管这报道是真的还是假的，说实话Friedman先森我不太相信你），你还欠读者们接下来的报道：美国的信任缺失，以及接下来美国将衰落成二流国家。现在我们不可能相信报纸上写的任何东西，也不可能相信美国的任何政客。他们一直试图让我们相信他们一直对公众撒的谎，而且他们绝不会承认他们有罪。在美国你甚至不能相信任何科学家。
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mikeoshea&&Hadley, NY （纽约）Sept. 12, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.支持数：53
I've beento China more than forty times in the past 15 years and have spoken (inChinese) to thousands of people. I have often been asked what I liked aboutthat country. As an individual American not connected to politics I found itquite easy to say that I liked traditional Chinese culture -Taoism, Buddhism,family unity, reverence for the elderly, thirst for education, etc - but Ididn't like some of the mass craziness orchestrated by ideologues like Mao. Iwas pleasantly surprised that most ordinary Chinese I met agreed withme.

Another thing I like about modern China is the pride that most Chinese havein the modernizing of the country.
在过去的15年内我已经去过中国超过40次，并且和成千上万的人（用中文）说过话。常常有人问我为什么究竟喜欢这个国家的什么。由于我是个独立的、与政治无关的美国人，我发现这个问题很容易：我喜欢中国的传统文化钟的道教、佛教、家庭团结、尊敬老人，对于教育的渴求，等等，不过我不喜欢那些像太祖之类的理论家策划的大规模的狂热。我很惊喜我认识的大多数普通中国人同意我的观点。另一件让我喜欢现代中国的事情是大多数中国人在这个国家的现代化进程中所具有的骄傲情怀。
Solarpanels seem to grow on rooftops in some cities. Hundreds of thousands ofwindmills are connected to the electric grid in the great desert in northwestChina. Bridges 26 miles long now connect cities like Shanghai and Ningbo.Subways far superior to ours spring up seemingly overnight in cities likeShanghai and Beijing, and the railroad system has changed from a smellyembarrassment to one which has improved from the ground up.
一些城市里，太阳能电池板像是在屋顶生长一般发展着。成百上千的风车与中国西北的大沙漠钟的电网连接起来。26英里的桥梁连接了像上海和宁波之类的城市。远远优于我们的地铁似乎一夜之间就在北京和上海之类的城市发展起来，而铁路系统一改一无所有的状况，走上高速发展的道路。
Unlike inour country they realized that trains could only run smoothly and fast on solidfoundations, so they tore out almost all of the wooden ties which connect theiron rails and replaced them with heavy, reinforced concrete ones. Now even oldrolling stock provides fast and smooth rides for all passengers, and at areasonable price. And they spend 1/6 of what we do on their military.
与我们不同的是，他们认识到火车只能在坚实的基础上平稳而快速地运行，所以他们将大部分轨道上用于连接的木头换成了沉重的钢筋混凝土。现在即使是旧的机车车辆都在平稳快速地运送旅客，而且价钱非常合理。而他们在军事上的花费只有我们的1/6.
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VI Guy&&US VirginIslands （美属维尔京群岛）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:05 a.m.支持数：52
MittRomney has said, &I have indicated, day one, I will issue an executiveorder identifying China as a currency manipulator. We'll bring an actionagainst them in front of the WTO (World Trade Organization) for manipulatingtheir currency, and we will go after them.&
米荣泥说，“我指出过，行使总统职权的第一天，我就会发布一项行政命令，将中国列为汇率操纵国。我们回去WTO提交一份对于他们他们操纵货币的诉讼，然后我们会一直监视他们。”
Soundsgood until you read what that same WTO states on their Website &Theshort-sighted protectionist view is that defending particular sectors againstimports is beneficial. But that view ignores how other countries are going torespond. The longer term reality is that one protectionist step by one countrycan easily lead to retaliation from other countries. (For example), the tradewar of the 1930s when countries competed to raise trade barriers in order toprotect domestic producers and retaliate against each others’ barriers. Thisworsened the Great Depression.& 


这听起来不错，直到你读到（相同的，就是米荣泥说要向其提交诉讼的那个）WTO在他们的网站上怎么说的：“短视的保护主义者认为在进口方面保护特定部门是有利的，但这忽视了其他国家将如何应对。然而长远意义上的现实是一个国家的保护主义举措会很容易招来其他国家的报复。（例如）20世纪30年代的贸易战争中各国争相提高贸易堡垒以保护自己的商品、并报复对方的贸易壁垒。这加剧了大萧条。”
Will MittRomney's actions towards China ignite a fire he may not be able to control?Europe is economically frail, already many countries are in a recession becausethey adopted the equivalent of the Romney budget. Austerity in those countrieshas only caused the financial condition of the people to worsen.
米荣泥会无法控制他对中国的行动所点燃的战火吗？欧洲的经济已经风烛残年，许多国家因为通过了和米荣泥差不多的预算而陷入衰退。这些国家的紧缩政策不仅仅造成了人们财务状况的恶化。
At thispoint, the possible starting of a trade war between the world's two largesteconomies would be insane. A trad e war, when combined with Europe's fragileeconomy, and the downturn in the American economy caused by the Romney budget,would result in another economic depression, not just a severe recession. 

See
在这个节点上，世界上两个最大的经济体之间的贸易战争有可能爆发的贸易战将是疯狂的。当欧洲脆弱的经济和米荣泥的预算导致的美国经济低迷结合在一起时，一场贸易战不仅将造成又一次大萧条，而不仅仅是一次严重的紧缩。看看
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DanCalifornia （加利福尼亚）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:06 a.m.支持数：47
I've beendoing business with small sized manufacturers in China for 16 years. I have notseen much innovation in terms of creating or designing new products. Wherethere does seem to be ingenuity and innovation is in production efficiency andcost reduction. I do believe the Chinese education system has a lot to do withthat because manufacturing is about engineering and process control, which areanalytic tasks. When it comes to design and creativity, I have found thereseems to be very little sense for, or sensibility about, it there.
我已经与中国的小型制造商做生意16年了。在创建或设计新产品方面，我还没看到太多的创新。只有在提高生产效率和降低成本方面我才能看见创新和聪明才智。我确实认为对于这样的现象，中国的教育体制发挥了重要的影响，因为制造业与工程和过程管理息息相关，而这都是分析类的工作。当设计设计和灵感时，我发现中国人几乎没有什么灵感。
I thinkthere is definitely a lack of trust about intellectual property, and that'sfully warranted. It's easy to conclude that China could gradually become asource of design creativity and product innovation if there were more trustbecause that's sort of what happened in Taiwan, but Taiwan has been moreWesternized for much longer than China, and was democratized, so I'm not sureChina can be expected to follow that example. I think what is really needed inChina is intellectual and social freedom. Only then can true creativity have achance of flourishing. 

我觉得对知识产权缺乏信任是完全有理由的。所以我们很容易得出“如果人们能更加信任，那么中国也将逐渐成为设计创意和产品创新的来源”的结论，因为台湾就是那样，不过台湾长久以来都比中国西化和皿煮化，所以我不确定中国会不会像台湾一样。我认为中国真正需要的是知识和社会的自由。只有这样他们的创造力才能真正有蓬勃发展的机会。
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John McBrideSeattle, WA （华盛顿州，西雅图）Sept. 12, 2012 at 12:05 a.m.支持数：45
I'm struckthat in your discussion, Mr. Friedman, presenting a complex collection ofpremises, hung around your column like separate paintings that comprise awhole, there is still missing even the hint of the hint of the dragon that isthe coiled soul of China: its very long, ancient history of centralauthoritarianism whose claws grasp every village and whose fire can erupt atthe least provocation.


Friedman先森，我被你的讨论打击到了。你专栏里的讨论非常复杂，如同许多包含了整个如今人们仍然甚至连一点点都不了解的龙的独立画作，而这龙代表了中国盘绕的灵魂；中国具有漫长而古老的中央集权的历史，龙的爪子牢牢的攥着每个村庄，而喷出的火焰会扑灭哪怕是最小的挑衅。
Yes, Iadmire China. I have for decades. I too have been there. China was an early&great& teacher's passion, enthralled with Confucianism, Taoism, SunYat-sen and all things Nationalist and anti-communist. They were the iron ruleddays of Chiang Kai-shek and his wife, the constant attacks on Quemoy and Matsu,and the Cold War intrigues of Hong Kong and Maucau. 

&&
是的，我佩服中国。我也在那儿待过十几年。伟大的先师们的热情被融合和流传，令儒家、道家、孙中山等所有的民族主义者和反GCZY者都被吸引。那是常凯申和他夫人的铁腕统治，是对金门马祖的长期攻击，是冷战时期针对香港和澳门的阴谋。
China hasopened and embraced Capitalism, but it isn't the Capitalism known by most inthe West, the Capitalism moderated by compromise with Social upheaval and Christianity.

China'seconomy is Western in resemblance of that which it trades with, but a dragonnevertheless.


中国已经开放并迎接了资本主义，但是这并不是被西方了解的资本主义，西方所指的资本主义是社会动荡与基督教妥协的产物。中国的经济与西方的交易有相似之处，然而它无论如何都是条龙。
With timeit may soften as students, academics, farmers, and workers ask for more thancrumbs from the tables. And we can, and should learn from China as they have,and do, from us. The trade of intellect is more valuable than that ofmaterials.

But all the while we need to be aware that the dragon in the soulof China is not by training and habit the fairy tale version. Authority is notsurrendered by those who command it, nor easily shared.

随着时间的推移，它可能会因为学生、学者、农民和工人对于桌子上的残羹剩饭感到不满而软化。我们可以，并且应该向他们学习，就像他们从我们这里学到东西一样。智慧的交流比物质的交易更加重要。但是与此同时，我们也必须警惕中国魂中的那条龙。那龙不会被驯化，也不会与童话里的龙一样。权利不会被掌控者交出，也不会轻易被分享。
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DoublecreekChina In reply to John McBrideSept. 12, 2012 at 6:19 a.m.支持数：42
（回LS）“ its verylong, ancient history of central authoritarianism whose claws grasp everyvillage and whose fire can erupt at the least provocation.”
“中国具有漫长而古老的中央集权的历史，龙的爪子牢牢的攥着每个村庄，而喷出的火焰会扑灭哪怕是最小的挑衅。”
This is avery debatable statement. The traditional Chinese regime may have beenauthoritarian (like any regime in the world before 1900), but its power did notreach further than the district level, meaning that China on the local levelwas governed almost autonomously.
这条论述非常具有争议性。中国的传统制度可能是毒菜的（像是1900年之前世界上的的任何政权一样），但是它的力量还没有达到区的层面，这意味中国在地方上几乎是自主管理。
In fact,these autonomous, local organization may have been much more democratic thananything in the Western world, being organized in (religious) local societiesin which government officials, local landlords, guilds, clan societies, templesocieties etc. shared power under the supervision of the ancestors, gods orHeavenly Mandate or whatever you want to call it.
实际上，这些自制的地方组织可能比西方世界更加皿煮。在（宗教的）地方社会中，政府官员、地主、行业协会、氏族和寺庙都在祖先、神明、上天或是随你叫什么的监视下分享权力。
Thecentral government's only responsibilities pertained to raise taxes, speakjustice (a district governor was also judge), and maintain an army forprotection and corvee labor for public works.

It was in fact the CCP thatdestroyed this system by planting its representatives in every&unit&, factory, school, neighborhood, courtyard up to the villagelevel, basically supplanting the traditional local society with its own organization,but which by contrast was completely controlled top-down from the Zhongyangleadership to your doorstep (or bed or even womb). This system of control is sototal and pervasive that it is almost impossible to escape. It should not beconfused with traditional China.
中央政府的责任只设计提高税收、为正义撑腰（地区长官也是法官），并维持军队的防御性和公共工程的劳役。正是GCD用在每个“单位”、工厂、学校、邻里、庭院到乡镇一级安插D员的办法摧毁了这个系统，用自己的组织基本上取代了传统的当地社会，但相比之下更是从中央领导（“中央”一词用了拼音Zhongyang）到你家门口（床上甚至子宫）完全控制。
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Doug TerryOut beyondthe beltway, Maryland （马里兰州，绕城高速外）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:05 a.m.支持数：38I havecome across Alibaba in my business dealings and one thing that struck me isthat there is no equivalent online market place offering in this country.American companies want to go it alone and not be compared side by side withcompetitors. Another point is that many foreign companies, especially those inChina, are willing to come in at a lower level on the value added chain. Theypresent themselves as ready to do anything for you. American corporations wantthe higher level functions where profits, if they come, are guaranteed to bemuch higher.
我用过阿里巴巴，令我印象最深的是在这个国家不提供对等的在线市场。美国公司想要单干，而不是和竞争对手进行方方面面面的比较。另一点是，那些外国的公司，尤其是在中国的，愿意在进入（中国市场）时处于增值链的较低端。他们展示他们已经准备好为你做任何事的姿态。如果他们进入了（中国市场），美国公司希望那些功能能更高级别，他们的利润也能保障保持在更高的水平。
Foreigncompanies are willing to settle for smaller margins and hope they get volumeorders. 

This points up what, to me, is a huge problem in our own country: ourbusiness culture is such that we abandon as many opportunities as we grasp. Inthe process, we might be letting the world slip away.
外商愿意愿意为了更小的盈利空间和解，是因为他们希望得到批量的订单。对于我来说，这一点在我们国家是个巨大的问题：我们的商业文化就是我们能抓住多少机会，多少机会就会从我们手中溜走。在这个过程中，我们可能正在让世界离我们而去。
There are thousands, literally thousands, of business opportunities passed over byAmerican companies for many different reasons but, in the main, the lack of ahuge potential payoff is lacking, plus the new ideas require upfrontinvestment. The more speculative opportunities are grabbed by smallerbusinesses and start-ups, which often don't have the money to keep going longenough to reach success. One example: some of the pioneering development ofdigital video in the early 90s was done by a California company that wasimmediately scooped up[ by Toyota when it was forced to shut down.


成千上万的商业机会因为不同的原因被美国公司错过，但总的来说（这些公司）缺少巨大的潜在回报，加上新的构想需要前期的投资。更多的投机机会被小企业和仍在启动阶段的企业抓住，但是他们往往没有足够的资金支撑到足够长的时间直到成功为止。举个例子：<font color="#年代初期，一家加州公司首创的一些数码影像产品不久就因为日本企业（比如丰田）的竞争倒闭了。看看这里：
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RandyPollockChinaSept. 12, 2012 at 12:35 p.m.支持数：32
As someoneliving in China for many years, I often sense Friedman's remarks are informedby (a) helicopter reporting guided by eager officials, executives, andinvestors, and (b) readings or selective misreadings of others' articles andbooks.
作为一个在中国过了很多年的人，我觉得，Friedman的观点通常是由下列元素支持的：a)由有迫切需求的官员、企业高管和投资者主导的报告，以及b)对于他人的文章和书籍的阅读或者说误读。
Forinstance, find me an essay anywhere that claims, &Chinese cannot beinnovative because of their DNA.& But Mr. Friedman uses that strawargument to set up his premise, which he backs up, of course, with the mostinsulting cliche of all, that gun powder and the compass prove that Chineseactually can be creative. (I mean, doesn't the fact that defenders of Chinesecreativity always rely on these same 1,000 year-old examples undermine ratherthan strengthen their arguments?) 


比如说，找出哪怕一篇文章说“中国人不能发明是天生的”来给我看看啊？然而Friedman先森用这一文不值的论点作为他的前提，并且用他那些“火药和指南针的发明证明了中国人其实是有创新能力的”之类侮辱性的陈词滥调作为支持。（我的意思是，难道那些中国创造力的支持者总是拿一千多年前的事情来支持自己的论点难道不是使自己的论点弱化，而不是强化吗？）
Theproblem is, Friedman reduces China's complex challenges of invention to&trust& because he hasn't spent years working with and trying to makesense of regular folks whose thinking and morality have been shaped (evenhard-wired) by poverty, overpopulation, unfairness, noise, authoritarianism,and yes, rote-learning enforced by star rote-learners. Sure, lack of trust is aproblem. But worse, with their harsh history and self-serving leaders as theirmodels, Chinese people suffer a national deficit of empathy. After all, thehabit of casting oneself into another's shoes drives invention, quality ofproduct, honest inquiry, and ethics. Ultimately, too many Chinese still don'tknow what they don't know. Protect ideas? Why?

问题是，Friedman先森将中国创新的复杂挑战降低为“信任”，因为他从未和普通工人一起工作过很多年；他从未试图理解他们的思想和道德，后者的形成归咎于贫困、人口过剩、不公、吵闹、专制主义，以及，是的，被擅长死记硬背的老师教导的死记硬背的学习方法。是的，信任的缺失是个问题。但是更糟糕的是，中国人以他们苛刻的历史和自私的领导人作为榜样，他们饱受国家未考虑他们利益的赤字的折磨。毕竟，在自己的环境里用别人的思维方式思考能带来发明、优质的产品、诚实的质询已经道德。最终，太多的中国人依然不知道他们不知道什么。保护思想？为什么？
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RichmondSanFrancisco, CA （加利福尼亚，圣弗朗西斯科）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:38 a.m.支持数：31
Can yousay that for India, Tom Friedman? According to you a country like India shouldbe ahead of China in every way because it does all the things you say is rightyet it is not. Today India businessmen are skeptical of India's future. Thatwouldn't be the case if there were trust in India.你觉得你的观点套在印度上如何呢，Friedman先森？根据你说的，印度这样的国家可是在各个方面都比中国优秀，因为它做了你说是正确的所有事情。然而它并没有超越中国。如今，印度的商人对印度的未来持怀疑态度。即使印度存在信任，也不会是这种情况。
Who in theUS trusts politicians or corporate executives. The fact is so-called Westernexperts have been predicting China would collapse for every reason includingthis one for how long now? Yet China is still humming along better than anyWestern country at least. The fact is the China naysayers are only gaugingChina by how well the US and Europe are doing since they are China's largestexport markets.Problem isthat's not accounting China's growing domestic economy. That's not accountingthat all that outsourcing Western companies do in China, the Chinese don't keepthe profits thus don't make a lot of money from. Remember everything made inChina is slave and child labor.
在美国，谁还相信政客或是企业高管。事实是所谓的西方专家都在预测中国即将因为许多包括这一点（信任缺失）原因而崩溃都多久了？然而，中国发出哼声：它至少比任何西方国家过得好。事实上，中国的反对者只用美国和欧洲做得如何去衡量中国，因为它们都是中国最大的出口市场。问题是这不算中国日益增长的国内经济。这不算外包西方公司在中国赚的钱，因为中国人无法保持利润，所以中国人挣不到钱。记住一切的中国制造用的都是奴隶和童工。（灯：看到奴隶和童工，放心了）
So where's all the money going and have beengoing. It's never gone to the Chinese because those foreign corporationswouldn't have outsourced there if it weren't cheap in the first place. A lot ofreports saying foreign corporations are leaving China because it's tooexpensive now. Well that just means China is moving up the economic ladder.Higher wages in China just means Chinese people are finding better jobs thatpay more. 

所以想想看那些钱去哪儿了。中国人赚不到钱，因为如果中国提供的价格不是最便宜的话，西方公司就不会外包给中国。许多报道都说外国公司都在离开中国，因为现在在中国（生产）成本太高。那么这只是意味着中国正在提升它的经济模式。工资提高刚开始意味着中国人正在寻找工资更多的更好的工作。
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michaelusaSept. 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m.支持数：27Mr.Friedman confuses the creativity and innovation of historical China with thecurrent People's Republic of China (PRC). They are not the same. 

The PRC is apolice state run by a communist party that controls every aspect of life intoday's Chinese society. 

How can you have innovation and creativity when thecommunist party controls what you learn in school, what you read in anewspaper, and what you see on TV.

Friedman先森搞混了历史上的中国与现在的中国（PRC）的创造力和创新力。这两者不一样。PRC是个政治国家，由GCD控制现在中国社会的方方面面。当GCD控制了你在学校学什么、报纸上读什么、电视上看什么的时候，你怎么创新呢？
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Jay JChestnutHill, MA （马萨诸塞州）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m.支持数：26Trust inthe Chinese? Perhaps Mr. Friedman might inquire of the Tibetans how much trustthe Chinese deserve. 

信任中国人？也许Friedman先森应该去问问XZ人多少相信中国值得信任。（灯：终于看到XZ，再次放心了）
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BobTeaneck, NJ （新泽西州）Sept. 12, 2012 at 9:52 a.m.支持数：23Peoplesaid for years that Japan couldn't do anything more than assembleblack-and-white TVs. Then they said the same thing about Taiwan, South Korea,etc. Now we have Samsung.

I drive a Chinese-designed electric bike. This is atruly innovative, potentially groundbreaking product. I save thousands ofdollars a year with it. Western companies produce no product that is evenremotely competitive. China developed the electric bike market from nothing,and now owns it.

China is also investing billions in Thorium power. If thisworks out for them, it will pay big: the West will be buying their designs foryears to come.

Nobody has a monopoly on innovation.

以前人们说日本除了装配黑白电视机之外什么都干不了。然后他们说台湾、韩国等等也是这样。现在我们有了三星。我有辆中国设计的电动自行车。这可是个真正创新型的、潜在突破型的产品。我用一年节省了数千美刀才买了它。西方公司生产的产品没有一样能与其相竞争。中国的电动车市场从无到有，而现在他们掌控了这一市场。中国还在钍（放射性金属元素，元素符号Th，原子序数为90）动力上投资了数十亿美刀。如果这成功了，这可以赚很多钱：西方在未来几年内会购买中国人设计的东西。没有人能垄断创新。
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PeterChicago （芝加哥）Sept. 12, 2012 at 6:19 a.m.支持数：21
Beatingthat drum of globalized hyper-capitalism, Mr Friedman discounts realities suchas, oh, running out of raw materials and the resource wars that will accompanythem (why are we really in Afghanistan - unta why were/arewe in Iraq - oil), not to mention the dubious consequences of a global hike ofconsumerism that will quickly up the global warming and all its consequences -hey world, where room for the displaced Bangladeshi's and other denseshore-line areas?
Mr Friedman lives inn a fantasy world. A decade ago it wasthe magic wand of &democracy& delivered at the point of a Bushy gun.Funny how Mr Friedman has erased that like the Republicans have erased Bush.




通过拍击超全球化的鼓，Friedman先森将例如原料和与之相随的资源争夺战之类的现实打了折扣（我们去阿富汗的真正目的是许多未开发的资源，我们去伊拉克的真正目标是石油），更不必说全球愈演愈烈的消费主义会给全球变暖带来的没有把握的后果。拜托，全世界哪里可以为流离失所的孟加拉人和其他住在海岸线边上的稠密人口腾出空间来？Friedman先森住在一个神奇的世界。十年前就是小布什用“皿煮”这根魔杖点燃了战火。有趣的是，Friedman先森抹去了之前我说的那些问题，就像共和党人选择性遗忘了小布什一样。点击：

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WaratahDC （华盛顿特区）In reply to John McBride （总是讲“龙”的那位6L）Sept. 12, 2012 at 6:41 a.m.支持数：18
Youranalysis is too erudite for Tom. It would get in the way of his celebrating thefact that he was at AliFest. I think you're spot on correct both with regard tothe dual nature of China's current capitalist revival and the latent threat ofviolence that sits at the center of everything. Tom on the other hand sees thatauthoritarian streak as a way to get things done fast, and he admires that. Ofcourse, he doesn't live there.

你的分析对于Tom来说太博学了。这只是他在庆祝他去了AliFest（阿里巴巴网商年度大会）的事实的方式而已。我认为你在中国资本主的复兴和中国处于潜在地威胁一切的中心这两点上说得很好。在另一方面，Tom看起来很敬佩飞速发展的毒菜主义者。当然了，他没住在那儿（中国）。
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cdav531New Jersey （新泽西）Sept. 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m.支持数：18
Alibabawon't be hooking up with Facebook any time soon. Facebook is blocked here inChina. As are many other websites &The Party& doesn't like. Thebiggest &trust issue& is The Party doesn't trust The People and ThePeople don't trust The Party. I don't see that changing any time soon. 

阿里巴巴以后不能和非死不可连接了。非死不可在中国被和谐了，和其他“党”不喜欢的网站一样。最大的“信任问题”是D不信任人民，而人民也不信任D。以后中国都不会有任何改变的。
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BrendanClarkeSept. 12, 2012 at 8:47 a.m.支持数：16
Alibaba isprobably the wrong evidence to present for this article. &When there is trust, people are willing to share their ideas and collaborate on each other’sinventions without fear of having their creations stolen,& describes alack of trust in intellectual property enforcement, not in payment transferenforcement.

 Alibaba is a network for transferring goods and services securely. I'm sure this does foster some kind of trust, that money will be payed forservices rendered, but this wasn't ever established as a problem in thearticle.
想证明这篇文章的观点，阿里巴巴可不是个好的例子。“当一个社会有了诚信，人们愿意共享创意并与对方共同合作发明，而不必担心自己的成果被窃取。”这描述了在知识产权的法律保护方面缺乏信任，而不是在财产支付和转移方面。阿里巴巴是一个用于商品交易和安全传输的网络。我敢肯定在到货之后再付钱能促进某种信任，但是这不能解决文中所讨论的问题。
DoesAlibaba have any incentive to enforce patents? To ensure that a company is ableto recoup research costs from developing a new product? If so, this would bevery interesting but isn't presented here.

There are a lot of practices thathave made a mockery of the patent system in the US over the past 10 years orso, but it is based on a sound idea. Innovation happens faster when innovatorscan present their ideas to the public with the knowledge that they will beprotected. As far as the article above is concerned, this is a type of trustthat still needs reinforcement in China.

阿里巴巴在鼓励专利权方面有任何促进吗？能确保一个公司有能力收回开发新产品的成本吗？如果能的话很有意思，但是作者没有向我们展示这一点。在过去的十年间有无数对于美国专利制度的嘲弄，但这都基于一个健全的思维上。如果向公众表达她们的想法的创新者可以收到保护，创新会更快。就上面的文章而言，中国仍需加强这一类型的信任。
Troyce KeyLos Angeles （洛杉矶）Sept. 12, 2012 at 6:41 a.m.支持数：16
I'm notbuying into this article..not when 1% of this country's party elite arestealing this country right out from under the rest of the 99%. Also, not whenthe universities encourage intellectual theft as we've seen for years using theexample of the chip stolen from Texas Instruments by a hugely esteemedprofessor at Jiao Tong University, who claimed he invented a super chip only tobe exposed to having burned off TI name and replaced it with his. This is alldaily stuff.

我不会买这篇文章的帐的，因为这个国家1%的党内精英正在窃取剩下来的99%的人（的财富）。此外，大学鼓励窃取知识产权，举个例子，我们这些年来总看到一名来自Jiao TongUniversity（上海交通大学）的取得巨大名望的教授一直在使用偷自Texas Instruments（德州仪器公司）的超级芯片，而他烧掉了（芯片上的）IT名，取而代之声称是他发明的。这是每天都发生的事情。
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KevinRothsteinNew YorkSept. 11, 2012 at 10:10 p.m.支持数：16
I suggestMr. Friedman read a new book entitled &A Hologram For The King&. Thebook should make for an interesting read on his flight back from China. 

我建议Friedman先森从中国灰回来时读一读新书《国王的全息图》。
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wenmchangDelaware （德拉瓦州）Sept. 12, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.支持数：15
Chineseingenuity (or the lack of) under Communist One Party Dictatorship:

中国在GCD的一党专政下的独创性（或缺乏）：
諾貝爾獎 和 中國人 - 問答 Nobel Prizes andChinese Q&A


1. 問： 有沒有中國人獲得諾貝爾獎？Q: Any Chinese people received NobelPrizes?

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答：有，但他們都拿著外國國籍。(李政道、楊振寧、丁肇中、李遠哲、朱棣文、崔琦、賽珍珠、錢永健)

&&
A: Yes, but they all have foreigncitizenships 。(李政道、楊振寧、丁肇中、李遠哲、朱棣文、崔琦、賽珍珠、錢永健)


2. 問：有沒有中國公民獲得過諾貝爾獎？&&
Q: Any Chinese citizen received NobelPrizes?


答：有，但他們都是中華民國的公民。(李政道、楊振寧、李遠哲)

&&
A: Yes, but they are the citizens of theROC (Rep. of China) 。(李政道、楊振寧、李遠哲)


3. 問：有沒有新中國的公民獲得過諾貝爾獎？&&
Q: Any citizen of the PRC (People's Rep. ofChina) received Nobel Prize?


答：有，但他不承認自己是中國公民。(高行健)


A: Yes, but he refuses to acknowledge he isa citizen of the PRC。(高行健)


4. 問：有沒有承認自己是中國人的新中國公民獲得諾貝爾獎？&&
Q: Any one acknowledges he is a citizen ofthe PRC and also received a Nobel Prize? 


答：有，但是我們不承認他是中國公民。(和尚)
&&

A: Yes, but the PRC does not recognize himas a citizen of the PRC 。(和尚)

&&
5. 問：有沒有承認自己是中國公民，國家也承認他是新中國公民的諾貝爾 獎獲得者？& &
Q: Any one acknowledges he is a citizen ofthe PRC and PRC also recognizes him as a citizen of the PRC received a NobelPrize?


答：有，但他在新中國的監獄裡。(LXB)


A: Yes, but he is in the PRC's jail!。(LXB)

————————————————
Neil WilsonNew ZealandSept. 12, 2012 at 7:39 a.m.支持数：13
In someways the same is true of India. I have always been amazed by the extraordinaryskills and wealth of the worldwide Indian diaspora and yet India itself ismired in poverty and is a chaotic place that definitely does not live up to thepotential of its people. The reason for this in my opinion from personalexperience and talking to Indian expatriates is that the rule of law in Indiamoves in geological time, is inconsistent, favors the rich and moreimportantly, the politically well connected. India is a far freer place thanChina which is effectively ruled by a highly secretive hereditary oligarchy whoare above any law and wield absolute power but India also does illustrate yourpoint.

从某种意义上来说，印度也是这样。我总是惊讶于印度的海外侨民所具有的超凡的技巧和财富，而印度本身确实在贫困中挣扎，混乱不堪，与它和它的人民所应当具有的潜力毫不相符。我从个人经验以及与印度专家的交流出发，认为这境况的原因是在印度，法律的权威在印度的进步不符合它的时代发展，对于富人有利，而有政治关系的人甚至更加易于获利。印度远比中国自由多了，中国受一些极度秘密选出的，互相继承的政治寡头的统治，这些人凌驾于法律之上，并享有至高的权利。不过印度也很好的证明了作者的观点。
————————————————
bob fonowBeijingSept. 12, 2012 at 7:39 a.m.支持数：13
There is asaying in China. If you come here for a week you can write a book. If you stayfor five years you can write an article. If you stay for ten years you can'twrite anything. 

This is the kind of breathless admiration that frightensAmerican policy makers. If you live here you understand that China is like mostanyplace. There are some smart people, some effective people, but it takes alot of hard work just to keep basic order in a place of 1.3 billion people. 


中国有句老话。如果你在中国呆了一星期你可以写本书，如果你在这儿呆了五年你可以写篇文章，如果你在这儿呆了十年你什么都写不出来。就是这种让人呼吸困难的敬佩震慑住了美国的政策制定者。如果你住在这儿，就会发现中国和其他地方没什么不同。这里有聪明的人，有效率高的人，但是要维持13亿人的基本秩序非常难。
Admirationand enthusiasm should be countered with realism. Each of the innovations theMr. Friedman discusses was originated in the USA. It's still fair to say thatmost innovation comes from the students who have attended American graduateschools. So, it's really American innovation that is being described, not yetChinese. Huge education and political reforms will be necessary to change that.Will it happen? Maybe, but let's not exaggerate the capabilities of China orany other country. The US needs more friends, not more enemies. 

钦佩与热情应该和现实主义对抗。Friedman先森所讨论的创新都起源于美国。公平来讲大多数创新都来自那些上过美国研究生院的学生。所以，这些描述其实是美国型的创新，不是中国型的。教育和政治需要巨大彻底的改革。这会发生吗？也许，但是我不要夸大中国或任何其他国家的能力。美国需要更过的盟友，而不是更多的敌人。
————————————————
shalashaskaSeattle, WASept. 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m.支持数：12
Tom, theyalso sell hacked iTunes accounts on Taobao.
Tom，他们还在淘宝上出售黑客攻击过的iTunes账号。
————————————————
Tim BSeattleSept. 12, 2012 at 12:16 a.m.支持数：11I agreewith you Tom, trust is lacking, likely due to fear. A fear of standing out,being someone with 'different' ideas, and innovation often comes from thosewith new and provocative thinking. By training its people to embrace one unitedimage of what a people should be, and should think, they also discourage thekind of free thinking which will lead to new ideas and inventiveness. 

Tom，我非常同意你的观点，信任的缺乏可能是因为恐惧。那些有“不同”主意的人们害怕站出来，而创新恰恰来自于那些新而挑衅性的思维。通过训练人民只有统一的形象，他们打消了那些能带来新的思路和创造性的自由的思想。
————————————————
Taking thebus...AsiaSept. 12, 2012 at 8:56 a.m.支持数：10
Havinglived in China almost a decade now, but NOT in the great cities of Shanghai,Beijing, Tianjin, Chongqing, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Chengdu, etc. but rather inmost rural areas, where still more than half of China's population lives, Ifind some truth in what Friedman says about truth, but think the situation ismore complicated than described. In someways I find my Chinese friends moretrusting than my American friends, and thus sometimes less skeptical whenconfronted by pyramid schemes, panacea medications or the incessant phonephishing scams that try to get us to divulge bank account info, etc. 


我在中国住了十余年了，不过不在上海、北京、天津、重庆、深圳、广州、成都之类的大城市；仍有超过一半的中国人生活在在大多数农村地区。我觉得Friedman先森说的有一定道理，但是我认为他描述的情况比较复杂。在某些方面有时我发现我的中国朋友比我的美国朋友更加信任他人，所以有时对于非法传销（金字塔骗局）、“万能药”、试图让我们泄露银行账户信息的连续不断的电话诈骗等等不会那么怀疑。
I agree that some of Alibaba's phenomenal success is thanks to the trusted networkthey've created, I frequently use their service with my Alipay account. On theother hand a big part of their success is that they (along with some ) fill a huge market void, in that there are literally hundredsof millions of people like me without a Walmart (Carrefour, Lotus, etc.) within400 km who buy books, foods, electronics, etc. on the internet that are simplynot available at any price in our towns. One sign that there is certain typesof social trust here, perhaps in excess to that in US and elsewhere is that formost goods,
still offers cash-on-delivery service. Someday if peopleabuse that (by ordering goods they won't pay for, etc.) perhaps Amazon won't beable to trust their customers to that degree but for the present, it is veryconvenient.

我同意阿里巴巴的惊人成功要部分归功于他们创建的可信的网络。我经常将阿里巴巴和我的支付宝账户一起用。另一方面，他们成功的很大一部分原因是因为他们（和其他公司比如卓越亚马逊）填补了一块巨大的市场空白，因为毫不夸张的说，有上亿人像我一样住所附近400米内没有沃尔玛（或者家乐福，易初莲花之类），而这些人都要买书籍、食品、电子产品等等，而网上的价格是镇上销售价格所无法竞争的。有些事情能证明这里确实有某种形式的社会互信，或许甚至超过美国所有的，卓越亚马逊仍然提供货到付款的服务。如果某天人们滥用这一点（比如买那些他们绝对不会付钱的玩意等等）或许亚马逊也就不能想现在这样信任它的客户了，不过至少现在这是十分方便的。
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06:25 上传
大翻伤身啊，以后看到大翻LZ我都会感同身受地给小钱钱的OTL为什么大家的留言都这么长，为什么龙腾的排版这么蛋疼=_=第一次大翻，求指点！！求小钱钱！&&
感谢53L的yehaixinba童鞋和63L的菲里凌陆童鞋！LZ水平就是个渣渣……<font color="#ff-2014 感谢119L的@开水烫过的猪 对于标题翻译的建议！
金钱 +2032
灯灯灯灯灯灯
辛苦了，感谢翻译
辛苦了，感谢翻译
辛苦了，感谢翻译
翻译鼓励，再接再厉
lz辛苦了。。。话说我不认为信任和创新具有因果联系（实在很勉强），如果我有伟大的想法它自然有和别人信任与否没有关系，它俩是目前经济社会下的2种并发症而已，不信任和无创新，我相信他们都会得到解决，但不是一个导致另一个。。。
是否创新不在于培养也不在于信任，而是环境。国际国内环境，社会法制环境，生活交流环境，教育方式只是其中一种因素而已。&
就像LX所说的,而且即使创新真的是靠培养的...在中国追逐世界的脚步并没有多大的用处...除非中国发展已经赶上世界科技进步的脚步,或者中国已经发展到瓶颈...否则,不发心思在发展上,却发心思在&创新&岂不是本末倒 &
露个脸。看多了外国人的发言，闭着眼都知道他们要喷什么。创新是培养的么？创新真的是培养的么？有过有科学根据的实验证明创新是培养出来的么？多年来抨击我们教育制度，抨击我们民族的这个论据本身就有待考证。&
本帖最后由 BAsdk123 于
07:33 编辑
创新没那么复杂。当人民吃饱喝足，有精力干别的事情的时侯就可以创新了。我这个80后那会生活条件那么差哪里来的创新。还有只有学会灯泡怎么做才能在这个基础上讨论灯泡方面的创新。创新本身确实有时侯必须走别人走过的路。
创新在这个全球化的时代，没什么意义。&
追求创新本来就是误区，我只对 务实 两个字比较认可，如果山寨比创新省时省力省钱，完全应该山寨到底。特别是落后的一方，先进的一方花50年创新，落后的也花50年那就是脑残，我肯定花5年山寨。&
中国并不缺少创新，而是缺少让创新这颗种子长成苍天大树的土壤，阳光。许许多多的创新因为得不到养分，而还没破就死在了黑暗中。&
非常赞同，一个穷人看见面包，第一个念头是尽快将它吃下肚，而一个富人看见面包，会一边打着嗝，一边想着可否能在上面刻朵花。而刻了花的面包，最终就成为了所谓的创新，而急着填肚的穷人被视为不思进取，毫无贡献。&
米老鼠这种创新有用吗？&
在世界，我们更不信任白人！特别是那些喊着民主自由却给别人带去战争的白人！特别是那些喊着种族平等却屠杀原住民占领他们土地的白人！特别是那些喊着市场自由却不择手段抵制他国正常贸易的白人！特别是…………太多太多了！这些蛮夷只是一时站在了现代文明的前列，但终究改不了他们基因里面的野蛮
双重标准早已深深的刻在他们的骨髓里...&
全世界都一样，兴王道之师，诛不义之贼。&
俺最佩服西方人的地方就是，做再邪恶的事前都能给自己找一个高尚的借口。&
白种猴子们，还是改不了带着有色眼镜看问题的习惯。中国的经济总量虽然很大但人均只有美国的八分之一左右，饭也好一口一口的吃，中国的路日本走过，韩国走了一大半，中国正在走着而且步子更大。任何大师级的人物都是从学习拷贝然后一步一步走上创新的路，居然用上“永远”这种词，就好比有人说了30年中国要崩溃一样的愚蠢。
当一个人吃不上饭的时候，你跟他讲什么素质和道德基本都是车蛋，米国为了维持奢侈的美国式生活方式到处杀人，这时候米国人就选择性失明了。华为中兴倒是遵守了国际规则，结果米国国会说影响了米国的国家安全，这不是扯淡吗？
只有JY才相信米帝能够救中国，不管你们信不信，反正我是不信。
求签名出处~~~~&
种族歧视，禁言1天，扣100&
jy最喜欢用永远这个词了，中国永远超不过美国这种调调到处都有。拥有数千年历史的中国人才懂得什么叫世事无常。&
美帝自以为豪的军工就是抢劫了战败的德国来的，而中国花钱去买俄乌技术反而被他们耻笑，真是心中是佛，万物皆佛，心中有屎，万物皆屎&
哪个发明家没经过学习别人的阶段？作者纯粹是揣着明白装糊涂，就是为了喷中国人而已。&
我就凑个整
全身按摩+推油
一群2B，你们西方已经从工业革命到现在，已经积累了200年。基础金属，材料，化学，等各种基础都不是中国所能比拟的。现在中国需要的是补课打好基础，可是这样的投资是长期性，短期是没有回报的。由于禁运想学又学不到，所以只能山寨，在山寨中学习，积累经验。积累资金，投入产出的资金链才能循环。
现在他们说中国不会创新，就好比一个大学生和一个偏科严重的初中生比较，而且还说这个中学生连微积分都不会，这压根就毫无可比性。
山寨就是补课...当然,如果山寨来的东西卖出的价格反而比正版的贵,那才叫诈骗...&
请注意文明用语&
英国当了几百年海盗贩卖黑奴完成原始积累才有后来的爆发，美国当了几十年提包小弟靠着贩卖军火，山寨英德，挖墙角，才有后来的科技各种成果。日本山寨美国，台韩山寨日本。没有山寨哪里会有创新？山寨其实就是学习。&
哈哈，不要在意，人家就是为喷而喷。&
吃饱喝足了才能去闲折腾，而这就是所谓的创新。
撸一撸，精神百倍啊。龙腾网
LZ赶紧滴、、、、、、、、、、、、
楼上上这些怎么了。。我觉得文章评论都还可以。。龙腾网
道德沦丧，对tc的失望确确实实普遍存在于我们的生活
少年还是太年轻了，想当年俺也是这么过来的，等进了社会，你就会发现这事儿很不对。LX说得很正确。&
至于100%都是职业乞丐，那是因为我帮助过警察做过类似的数据归纳，把行乞人员送到收容所，但没多久，他们还会出现在路上继续行乞&
我以上说的方法，是黄渤在拍了《亲爱的》之后，发的微博。请不要给他们钱，那是在帮助坏人，谢谢。&
劝你一句，不要以为给了行乞的人钱，那就是好事了，在我们中国，乞丐100%是职业的。而如果你看到有小孩子，就是年纪不大的行乞，如果是身有残疾，最好的做法是拍照，然后放在相关的失踪人口微博上，报警也很好&
据美国国会的一项调查，全美５０００万名学生中有多达４５０万人在幼儿园到１２年级期间，曾遭学校人员性侵犯。据美国司法部统计，有１０万到３００万不满１８岁的美国儿童被卷入娼妓行业。--&2007年美国的人权记录 &
站着说话不腰疼~~~等中国强大了之后开始创新的时候。。你们有本事别走我们山寨的路~~工业化的时候，哪个国家不是山寨过来的
，自己工业化完成了，就定个版权意识让自己永远吸血么！！还站在了道德的制高点！！！我门山寨的确算不上光彩，但是我们至少没有粉饰自己的不光彩~~比起貌似站在道德制高点~~实际只为压榨所有不发达国家的血汗钱~~形成一个，赚得多，在创新，在赚钱的良性循环!简直无耻到了极点！！
扒一扒美帝的发家史，你就会发现人家当年不但山寨林立，还匪盗横行。蛮夷总是健忘的。&
签名是那对禁断姐弟？XD&
依然希望快点踏上创新之路…………！！！
截止2013年，在科技研发方面，中国达到世界领先的科技是18%，与西方水平相当的占27%，落后于西方的占55%。这只是用5年时间达到的水平。（这个世界只有两个国家-----中国和外国）。&
这观点还是有一定的道理的,比如去年出来的页游,神仙道,让人眼前一亮,结果在很短的时间内,跟风山寨品无数,这样的环境里,哪来的动力创新
那说明这种创新没什么实际价值。所以很容易被山寨&
山寨是一个方面
更可耻的万一领导不让做创新 非让你做三俗 创新人员也没办法 参考广告人员&
治blblbl........龙腾网
这篇文章又提到了法律司法独立呵呵是在搞内外呼应么？哈哈。
LZ辛苦了，看了文章说的电子商务要做到诚信吗
话说妹纸怎么撸一管啊
身不在高，幻肢要长。&
本帖最后由 tr 于
09:05 编辑 龙腾网
infinity26 发表于
08:16 龙腾网
这观点还是有一定的道理的,比如去年出来的页游,神仙道,让人眼前一亮,结果在很短的时间内,跟风山寨品无数,这 ...
很难说 下一首歌曲没给钱要罚款好几万的情况 和 无数山寨货使得整个产业链白菜化的情况 哪种更可悲龙腾网
至少，在中国的经济条件下，普通人更需要白菜化的产业链
另外，靠卖萌扯淡生产一大堆毫无意义奢侈品而无任何产业创新的欧美国家也不在少数
夏洛克猪们只会信任黑叔叔和三哥 毕竟智商占优势么
整个社会崇尚创新的动力是利益，诚信制度的建立能很大程度上保护创新者的利益和激情，文章说到点子上了，我们的创新成本比别人高很多，收益预期比别人少很多，所以我们宁愿山寨，这是制度缺失造成的。
同志们不要一提到制度，就认为是全盘否认，我们有大的政治制度，也有各种行业制度，制度缺失不可怕，就怕真的有问题也处于某种情感，不认。&
什么叫都是制度造成的？没走资本主义？当人家当你是敌人的时候不是敌人也是敌人。中国只是没敢上时代发展的潮流罢了！&
别笑了，别人说得有道理，而且我们如果有改正得益的是我么自己，这样都要喷有点自我闭塞，大气点小兄弟。&
中国作为一个发展中国家，在发展着，在慢慢开放，慢慢变好，这样的答卷已经不错。我们应该做的是让他在正确的轨道以合适的节奏继续向前，而不是强行变线到一个新的方重新探索向，也不是突然提速到看不清路线&
中国有近14亿人，人均GDP仅为87位，这样的经济条件和竞争下小企业和个人的创新自然存在顾虑，没有哪个落后国家可以引领创新，无论思想家还是发明家都是人民养活的，而中国大企业和国家项目上的的创新，也不见的很少&
本帖最后由 魔剑 于
09:21 编辑 龙腾网
我觉得先不用对文章的作者感到气愤，这里关于创新谈到了两个关键点：一是创新的土壤，二是对创新的成果的保护。前者提到了我们的填鸭式的教育，后者涉及我们在相关法律法规的完善。不过，西方人以为我们的教育还是象朝鲜一样搞意识形态那一套，这是他们不了解的地方。但是，对于西方教育和我们现在的教育的利和弊是值得商榷的。另外在专利保护的方面也值得讨论。
其实，这个文章的作者根本就是一叶障目，他所能保持的优越感根本就没多久了，现在我们国家的创新成果已经是迎头赶上。何必生气呢，反而是这些个人的言论表明，他们处于意识形态的控制之中&
中国经济的标准特征之一就是山寨。龙腾网
你了解中国吗？
上帝视角。龙腾网
有则改之无则加勉吧。懒得评论。
撸主性苦！
这专栏作家嘲讽淘宝式的信任啊？？？难道美国人信任指数这么高？？？笑死了，这眼睛的颜色也太深了。。
这篇文章的观点很莫名其妙啊！创新跟不信任有直接关系么，感觉文章的论据论点关系很牵强，这还是专栏ORZ
大翻伤身啊。。刚爬完山一回家就看到你的大翻了
腐妹纸的吐血大翻，看来翻完能减几斤哦～（话说爪机怎么给小钱钱？）
每次扫到你的签名我都想拔电源！！&
& & 谈到创新，我有一点想说的。龙腾网
& & 我始终认为创新，尤其是工业领域的创新，其实是一种“美”的体现。龙腾网
& & 这不单单是狭义的“工业设计”，而是一种宽泛的，广大的“美”。一个优秀的创新点，其实体现了创造者对“美”的感受，并且把这个感受表达出来，被大家所接受。龙腾网
& & 我们的人民缺乏对美的感受吗？我想这是不可能的，爱美之心人皆有之，不可能存在“感觉不到美”的人。龙腾网
& & 那么，缺乏在哪里？我认为是缺乏“领悟美”和“表达美”的能力，后两者都可以通过教育来弥补。
& & 所以，不管天朝的未来将会如何。加大对教育的投入，培养普通人对美的“领悟”和“表达”，都是不会错的道路。
你的想法太狭隘了，便利难道就不是美？这正好说明了你对美的认识太肤浅，可见中国缺乏美学教育。&
可以预言，当中国的整体科技水平达到一定程度，或者整体科技水平抑制社会前进和发展的时候，创新就会层出不穷。目前中国离世界先进水平还有很大差距，只有少部分东西领先世界或者和世界水平持平。&
只要拿来主义就可以用很长时间，至于这种东西（或者是技术，还有理念什么的）是否还有缺陷并值得去改善，不是中国人现在考虑的主要问题，因为比起我们以前的东西先进很多，所以优先学习和复制才是主要任务。但是.&
我不同意的看法，创新的来源不是美，而是因为便利，无论是工业上，还是商业上，甚至农业上。当你觉得目前手头上的东西可以用，不需要去改变，那么就不会有创新。中国目前就处于这种情况，因为落后太多，很多东西&
这才是你该选的混龙腾的方式，你那个美帝留学传记，老实说，激情太少了，很多针头线脑的事情，真心没啥兴趣。
做为一个能翻能写的，混迹在美帝老巢的中国敦实妹，我很看好你哟。
你不喜欢看留学记别人喜欢看啊，你喜欢看这个我就没什么兴趣&
经济基础决定上层建筑,其实社会发展到一定程度了科技文化都会开花结果.那些说中国没有创新力的人多活几年,到时候别吓尿了.
毕竟曾经落后那么多，先追赶，后创新&
在外面光看标题还以为是广告。。。
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我们解决了有无的问题并将其白菜化后，
必然会有更新更高一级的东西出来。J20就是一个例子。。龙腾网
一个呼吁就是，中国必须得加强法治，依法治国，龙腾网
有了法律之后要坚定执行，不管它先前是否有缺陷，龙腾网
根据出现的不足，完善各项法律。
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