[蓝贴] Jeff对于近期平衡性争议的超长文回应：现阶段很平衡，不会大削猩猩和DVA[已完工]
[quote][b]最近我一直在看对于当前版本的固定阵容和大众对于“剧烈”的平衡性更新来搅乱现状的渴望。我在这里将说出一些我自己的看法，但是我出于一些原因感到有一点紧张。尽管我是OW的游戏主管和发言人，但我并不会在一片空白中作出决定，我仅仅是一个非常棒的团队中的一份子而已。团队中不是每个人都同意我的观点，我们对于游戏的现状与综合平衡性有着不同的观点。我们的确会达成一致，但是我们会充分地谈问题——非常非常多的谈。而且我们并不总是同意彼此的观点。所以我知道这篇文章将成为对于这个问题的“官方”回应，但我对于这个问题说出的是我非常个人的观点。[/b]I’ve been reading the feedback regarding the current metagame and a general desire for “radical” balance changes to mix things up. I’ll offer some of my personal perspective but I’m a little nervous doing that for a few reasons. Even though I am the Game Director and a spokesperson for OW, I don’t make decisions in a vacuum and I am only one part of a very awesome team. Not everyone on my team agrees with me and we have different opinions on the state of game and balance overall. We do have a lot of alignment, but we talk things through
a lot. And we don’t always agree. So I know this will become the “official” response on the subject but I am really offering this from a very strong personal viewpoint first and foremost.[b]我在这说的最具争议的事情应该是：我相信这个游戏现在是平衡的。我想表达的是在现阶段我不觉得有任何英雄强到打破平衡。不过这并不意味着我不觉得有部分问题存在。尽管我认为让路霸不再有一击必杀Combo的能力是一件我们非常需要做到的事情，但是我对他的现状并不十分满意。举个例子来说，我也觉得我们需要对天使的复活做一些头脑风暴。这个能力非常的强大，但是对于天使自身和天使的敌方所有人来说都非常不有趣，但这并不是末日。这些都不是能破坏游戏的问题。这些问题最好是慢慢认真的修复，因为整个游戏并不会因为他们而毁。我只是用这些来作为例子而已[/b]The most controversial thing I’ll say here (hopefully) is that I believe the game is currently balanced. What I mean is that I don’t feel like there are any heroes who are way too strong to the point of breaking balance. That doesn’t mean that I personally don’t think there are some problems with heroes. While I believe moving Roadhog away from a 1 shot combo was a necessary thing we had to do, I’m not entirely satisfied with where he’s at right now. I also think we need to do some brainstorming when it comes to Mercy’s resurrect, for example. The ability is extremely powerful in a very unfun way for both Mercy and everyone playing against that Mercy. But it’s not doomsday. These aren’t game breaking issues. They are better fixed slowly and carefully as the overall game is not ruined by them. I’m just using these as examples. [b]但是我觉得游戏是平衡的。数据上来说，最不平衡的东西并不是你们所想的那些。秩序之光与托比昂的胜率并不平衡，他们太强了。但是这也是为什么我们不只是用数据做平衡的原因。我并不觉得社区现在对于这两位有着“太强了”的怒吼(至少在数据上是的)[/b]But I think the game is balanced. Statistically, the things that are most unbalanced aren’t what you think they are. Symmetra and Torbjorn win rates are not balanced. They are too good. But this is why we don’t balance on statistics alone. I don’t sense a great community uproar over the fact that Torb and Symmetra are “overpowered” right now (at least, statistically).[b]正如我上周所说的，平衡的观念比平衡本身更强大[/b]As I said last week, the perception of balance is more powerful than balance itself.[b]我非常不喜欢在一个非常大的社区里总结那些反馈，因为我觉得这对许多人都不公平。但是总的来说，我越来越觉得人们感到的真正问题是这一套“固定阵容”并没有想他们所想的那样快速变换。我觉得玩家们是在从职业圈出发然后做分析，用职业比赛中的出场率来作为他们反馈的基石。在职业圈中，队伍们得确会固定下来使用英雄池中的一套阵容。我们倾向于看到高端(所有玩家中的前三层)天梯竞技比赛中的阵容缓慢的追赶着职业比赛中的阵容，而且有数周的可观延迟存在。剩下的则是大多数玩家，事实上一点也不遵照这套“固定阵容”来玩，但是我们会知道有这套阵容存在，不管是因为你看社区讨论也好或者是你看职业圈的比赛也好。[/b]I really do not like summarizing the feedback from a large community because I think it’s unfair to so many people. But in general, I am getting the sense that the real issue people are feeling is that the “meta” does not shift as frequently as they would like. My sense is that players start with the pro scene and work their way down and base this feedback mostly on pick rates. In the pro scene, it’s true that the teams settle into using a subset of the hero pool. We tend to see high level (let’s just say the top 3rd of all players) competitive slowly catch up to the pro scene with some considerable lag of weeks if not months. The rest of us
the vast majority of us
don’t really play this meta at all but we’re aware of it either through community discussion or because we enjoy watching the pro scene.[b]这套固定阵容有很多方法可以变化，但是说实在的话我觉得主要有三种办法(至少是在电子游戏业内我们能看到的)：1)一些平衡性调整 2)玩家们开发新的策略 3)游戏通过机制来迫使固定阵容的改变[/b]There are a lot of ways the meta can change but if I had to boil it down to three main ways (that we see in video games at least) I would point to 1) something changes with the balance 2) players innovate new strategies 3) the game forces meta change through mechanics.[b]对于这三种办法...[/b]To comment on all 3…[b]我喜欢在游戏并不平衡和存在某些改动让游戏更平衡的的条件下固定阵容随平衡性而改变。用另外的话说就是：我不同意我们应该只改动平衡性来让玩家改变阵容的哲学。游戏团队应该不断地评估平衡性，并且做出因为一个英雄不平衡而真正需要的改动。但是只因为一个英雄的出场率高低而做出改动并不是我眼中负责任的游戏平衡方式。秩序之光的出场率现在非常低。我们可以做出改动，让她变成阵容中的一个“必选”角色(因此改变了现在的固定阵容)但是我觉得，总之，我关心秩序之光的平衡，也就是如果她真的回到主流阵容中的话，那时我会担心她的平衡性不佳。总结就是：平衡不平衡的英雄是好事，但是只让这个英雄出场率上升或下降并不是好的平衡(在我谦卑的观点中)[/b]I like when the meta changes on balance only when the game is not balanced and something was adjusted to make the game more balanced. Another way of putting this is, I do not agree with the philosophy that we should just make balance changes solely to shift people off the meta. The game team should be constantly evaluating balance and making changes that are actually needed because a hero is unbalanced. But making changes to a hero because their pick rate is too high or too low is not my idea of responsible game balance. Symmetra’s pick rate is very low right now. We could make changes to make her a “must pick” in the meta (and thus shifting the meta) but I feel like, if anything, I am concerned about Symmetra’s balance and worried that when she does eventually make her way back into the meta she is not balanced properly. So to summarize: balancing heroes who are unbalanced is good, balancing heroes just to make them picked more or picked less is not good (in my humble opinion).[b]对于玩家们发明了一种新策略而导致的阵容调整———这当然是最好的情况。我们一次又一次的看过这种事情的发生。这种事情通常发生在职业赛事中。当有队伍拿出一种崭新的战术而且表现良好时。这也是3T阵容成为潮流的原因。在现有的固定阵容之外进行发明是非常困难的事情。每一个玩家都是不一样的，有些非常有创意，而有一些善于实行策略，有些人都擅长。不管你是什么段位的玩家，有时间及自由来发明一套新战术都是一件非常困难的事情。职业选手通常都有着繁忙的日程安排，对于他们来说练习一套崭新的，打破常规的阵容是非常不容易的，特别在赛事日程安排繁忙的情况之下。但是说到底，个人而言，玩家们发明新战术而导致阵容调整当然是最好的结果[/b]Regarding the meta changing because players have innovated a new strategy
this is the best-case scenario. We’ve seen this happen time and time again. This usually happens in a pro tournament where a team pulls out a new strategy and performs well. This was how triple tank rose into fashion. Innovating out of a meta is extremely hard. All players are very different. Some are highly creative and some are excellent at executing. Some at both. Having the time and freedom to innovate on strategy is difficult no matter what level of play you’re at. Pros have busy schedules and it’s not always easy for them to practice new, out of the box things
especially if their tournament schedule is hectic. But when all is said and done, to me personally, the meta shifting because players innovate is the best possible outcome.[b]最后一种情况，游戏能使用机制来迫使阵容的变化。MOBA游戏拥有巨大的英雄池，没有Ban/Pick系统的话队伍们会不可避免的不断使用相同的阵容。使用Ban/Pick机制的目的是为了强行逼出多样性。我们可以在守望先锋中做这样的机制。我们可以防止某些英雄在某些或者是全部时候被选择，或者我们可以让你的对手防止你使用你想要的英雄。我们也可以迫使你或者允许你的对手来迫使你使用你不想玩的英雄。个人来说，我并不是这些系统的信徒(同时我理解并尊重为什么他们在MOBA游戏中使用这种系统)。我更想让OW让你自己更加富有创造性，而不是逼迫你更有创造性。我并不想看到世界上最好的源氏玩家来玩查莉娅，我想让他或她来玩源氏。而且，看到你们之中那么多人只是因为爱这个英雄而”主“一个英雄，我并不想让游戏或者你的对手告诉你你不允许使用这个英雄[/b]Lastly, a game can force a meta shift through mechanics. The MOBA genre has huge hero pools yet without pick and ban systems teams would inevitably play the same comps over and over. The game
through the mechanics of picking and banning
is forcing variety. We could do this in Overwatch. We could prevent certain heroes from being played some or all of the time or we could let your opponent prevent you from playing your desired hero. We could also force you or allow your opponent to force you to play a hero you don’t want to play. Personally, I am not a believer in these systems for OW (while I understand and respect why they use them in MOBA). I prefer to think that OW allows you to be creative which is different than forces you to be creative. I don’t want to watch the best Genji player in the world play Zarya
I want to see him/her play Genji. And also, seeing how many of you “main” heroes because you love them, I don’t want the game
or your opponent
telling you you’re not allowed to play that hero.[b]最近我们在街机中加入了6v6决斗模式，我觉得这种模式足以进入快速和竞技。这个模式是机械性”强制方法“的非常好的例子，游戏强制出场率和队伍组成发生变化。获胜的队伍必须使用18个不同的英雄。当然我敢打赌。如果这个模式进入了竞技的话，最终会形成18个英雄的固定套路，7个英雄会被完全无视。我不觉得这件事很糟糕，或者是世界末日，我觉得这种事就是现实。[/b]We recently added 6v6 Elimination to the Arcade and I think the mode is strong enough to exist in Quick Play and Competitive. That mode is a good example of a mechanical “forcing function” where the game causes shifts to happen in pick rates and team comps. The winning team is forced to play 18 diverse heroes. I would be willing to bet that if that mode was considered competitive, eventually a meta would settle in where 18 heroes were mostly picked and 7 would be rather neglected. Again, I don’t think this is horrible or the end of the world
I think it’s reality.[b]也有一些游戏，它们的固定阵容演变非常的慢，或者长期保持稳定，但这也并不意味着这个游戏不平衡或者不有趣，或者观看的不有趣。大多数职业运动都会变成这样。军团要塞2大部分时间阵容都固定为爆破手/医生/侦察兵/侦察兵/士兵/士兵的阵容，而且他们怎么说呢...已经被接受了。这游戏玩的很有趣，看得也很有趣。棒球也并不会因为所有队伍都把最强的击球手放在阵容中的第四位而变得糟糕。[/b]There are games with a set meta that evolve very slowly or remain stable for long periods of time and this doesn’t mean the game isn’t balanced or fun or fun to watch. Most of the pro sports fall into this category. TF2 was largely played Demo/Medic/Scout/Scout/Solider/Soldier and that was sort of just… accepted. It was fun to play and fun to watch. Baseball isn’t terrible or broken because every team puts their strongest batter 4th in the lineup. [b]不过我是否也许有些偏题了？我知道大家想让所有25个英雄在任何比赛中都有上场的机会，我也想。但是玩家和游戏面临的现实是：如果英雄y比英雄x被认为(不管是真是假)更有优势，更必须使用。那么任何一个职业选手都不会使用英雄x，即使只是因为他或她觉得英雄y只是强了1%而已。我们可以强行将英雄们平衡到同一水平上，但是即使出现了任何一点轻微的优势，结果都会于事无补[/b]But maybe I am off on what the expectation is from players here? I know the desire
and mine too
is that during every match of Overwatch all 25 heroes are viable at any time. The reality of gamers and video games is that any perceived (whether real or not) advantage is going to cause players to assume that they must play hero x over hero y. A professional Overwatch player will not player hero x if he/she thinks hero y is even 1% stronger. We can balance the heroes to equality but if there is the slightest perception of advantage, it won’t matter.[b]看一看现阶段的固定阵容，很明显”放狗“是最具支配力的策略。不对，应该是在职业圈中最具支配力的策略。大多数守望先锋玩家都以快速为主要游戏模式，上个月快速被选择最多的6个英雄是：源氏，76，半藏，麦克雷，天使和狂鼠。对于大多数不是职业选手而且不玩竞技的数据上占大多数的玩家来说，这才是你们的“固定阵容”[/b]Looking at the perception of the meta, it’s obvious that “dive” is the predominant strategy. Correction. It is the predominant strategy being used in the professional scene. The majority of Overwatch players play Quick Play as their primary mode. The top 6 picked heroes (over the last month) in Quick Play are Genji, 76, Hanzo, McCree, Mercy and Junkrat. For the statistical majority of Overwatch players who are not pros and don’t play Competitive, this is your meta.[b]每次我拉出像这样的数据总会让玩家们疯狂，因为他们想知道关于竞技而不是快速的情况。我在这里想要说明的观点是，发出快速的数据是为了说明这才是大多数玩家们所“真正体验到的”东西，而不是“认为”的东西。但是让我们只看竞技，这是6个最多选的英雄：天使(遥遥领先)，76，DVA，卢西奥，安娜和源氏。有趣的是，第七名是莱因哈特，下一个坦克是温...不对是路霸。所以说在上个月的竞技中，这才是你们真正所玩到的阵容[/b]It drives players crazy when I post stats like that because they want to know about Competitive and not Quick Play. The point I am trying to make by posting Quick Play is that the numbers show that that is what the majority of players are *actually experiencing* which is different from *perceiving*. But looking at Competitive only… here are the top 6 picked heroes: Mercy (by a long shot), 76, D.Va, Lucio, Ana and Genji. Interestingly, number 7 is Reinhardt. Next tank after that is… Wi… no Roadhog. So in the past month in Comp, that’s what you’ve been actually playing.[b]行吧，让我们谈谈精锐玩家们...也许是所有段位中最上面的三层。上个月选的最多的英雄是...安娜，对的，是安娜[/b]But let’s talk about the elite players… maybe the top 3rd of all MMR. Their top picked hero over the past month was…. Ana. Yes, Ana. [b]我并不是想故意减轻你们对于放狗阵容的疲劳感，但是我想让大家从一个现实的视角上来看一看。放狗本身是一个非常有趣的阵容。玩的也有趣，看的也有趣。其中包括了操作要求非常高的英雄，做着非常OW的事情。观看顶级源氏和猎空是非常棒的一件事。我不认为放狗阵容很差，但是我觉得玩家们想看到除了放狗阵容以外的更多阵容。我也想让这件事发生，但是这应该用一种非强制性，非伤害性的方式来做到。我不觉得我们应该向英雄们丢出一颗平衡性手雷来改变出场率。我也不觉得强迫使用Ban/Pick从长期来看会对游戏是好事。我觉得我们应该小心看待要求剧烈改动这件事。几个月之前我们削弱了D.Va，我们面对了无数玩家的愤怒，他们觉得我们“毁了”这个英雄，而且觉得她这个英雄永远没有出场的机会了。一个又一个的高楼帖子要求她被加强。我们坚持了自己的立场，因为我们觉得她并不弱。我们没有改动她。而现在她成了放狗阵容中最具统治力的英雄之一，很明显并不需要加强[/b]I don’t mean to discount your fatigue with the “dive” meta but I also want us looking at from a realistic standpoint. Dive itself is an interesting comp. It’s fun to play and watch. It features super high skill heroes doing very OW things. Watching top Genji’s and Tracers is fantastic. I don’t think dive comp is bad but I think what players want is to see more comps in addition to dive comp. I too would love for this to happen. But in a non-forced, non-damaging way. I don’t think we should just throw a balance grenade at the heroes to change pick rates. And I don’t think long-term for the game it’s good to start imposing restrictions on you as to what hero you’re allowed or not allowed to play. I think we also need to be careful about demanding drastic change. A few months ago we nerfed D.Va and we faced the ire of many very upset players who thought we “ruined” the hero and she would never be played again. There was mega thread after mega thread demanding she be buffed. We held our ground because we believed she was fine. We did not touch her. And now she is one of the dominant heroes in the dive meta
clearly not in need of a buff.[b]玩家们觉得我们对于英雄的任何改动都是为了加强或者削弱那个英雄。对英雄的改动通常都是为了让游戏更好。这就是我们想要对对路霸做的事情。我们的目标并不是削弱，我们的本意也不是削弱。我们目的是想要移除这个让我们玩家群体觉得“不OK”的，基于秒杀Combo的习惯。可能他还需要再做改动？也许吧。我举这个例子只是为了说明不是任何事都是非黑即白。在中间有一个灰色地带让游戏体验更好。有时我们需要坚守我们的阵地，不对这个游戏做更加戏剧性的变动[/b]Players think that every change we make to hero has the intent of buffing or nerfing that hero. Changes to heroes are usually made to make the game better. That’s what we were trying to do with Roadhog. Our goal wasn’t a nerf
our intent wasn’t a nerf. Our intent was to try to remove a behavior that had become “not ok” with our player base
the one-shot combo. Maybe he needs to be adjusted again? Probably. I am just using this as an example that not everything is super black and white. There is a gray area in making the game feel good. Sometimes we need to hold our ground and not make dramatic swings to the game.[b]我知道这个帖子可能会引起不少反对的声音。只有让温斯顿和D.Va被削成狗，你们某些人让放狗阵容离开的愿望才会被满足。但是我们并不会这么做。我们会在英雄需要时做出平衡性改动，我们会比你们相信的更频繁地做出改动。3个月后又会出现一套新的阵容。如果你是觉得阵容应该2周一换的那种人，那你可能会对那时的阵容感到恶心，并且希望回到那美好的放狗的日子...我只是警告你们不要只是为了改变而要求改动。固定阵容很快就会改变的。[/b]I know this post will be met with a lot of disagreement. The desire for dive comp to go away will not be satisfied from some of you until Winston and D.Va are nerfed into the ground. But we’re not going to do that. We are going to make balance changes to heroes when they need it
and we do this more frequently than you give us credit for. 3 months from now there will be a new meta. If you’re the type of person who feels like the meta should shift every 2 weeks, then you’ll probably be sick of that meta and wishing it was back in the good ol’ dive comp days… I just caution against wanting change for the sake of change. The meta will shift soon enough.[/quote][url=https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/?page=2#post-24]来源[/url][i]自翻，可随意转载，转载请注明来源[/i]
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支持一下楼主
jeff:游戏很平衡，别特么闹了。不改！awwbwg
[b]Reply to [pid=]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=]CJPYZ[/uid] ( 10:15)[/b]曹尼玛
我们觉得这样的平衡很COOOOOOOOOOOOOOL！[s:ac:擦汗]
[s:ac:嘲笑]只玩猎空每个版本都很平衡
[b]Reply to [pid=]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=]hoarlee[/uid] ( 10:16)[/b]你们没懂？姐夫的意思是 猩猩dva很平衡 是猪锤毛弱了！我们会加强的！！没有奥丽莎
猩猩真的好用，各种狗起飞
[b]Reply to [pid=]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=]hoarlee[/uid] ( 10:16)[/b]jeff在说废话
然后下个版本就把猩猩和dva削了[s:ac:blink]
把把放狗的版本，是怎样自信的说出来平衡的啊？普通玩家不提，韩国教练选手都不懂游戏？就尼玛暴雪懂吗[s:ac:擦汗]
猩猩，源氏猎空明显是这个游戏的主角，看看动画出现都多少次
固执和孤傲个的暴雪[s:ac:哭笑]
好长。。其实我觉得这个版本也还算平衡，但在猪削之前其实更平衡，猪削得有点过了。另外，我觉得总是不断修改现有英雄不是个好办法，把精力放在新英雄上更好。而且一场比赛的阵容同时只能选6个英雄，无论如何总是有强有弱的，希望每个英雄都是有平等机会，这不现实。28原则其实是非常通用的，有20%的英雄能有不超过80%的几率上场就算差不多平衡了。
虽然我身处鱼塘，版本平衡并影响不了我，我也明白平衡很难做。但是我也喜欢看比赛，说真的这个版本和以前多肉时期一样畸形，刚开始看还好 ，觉得挺精彩的，后面就觉得很无聊了。t位只能上dva，温斯顿，大锤蠢的一b，阵容选择其实很死板。我是不喜欢现在的版本[s:ac:委屈]
难道你们需要像魔兽阿三组一样动不动几十条几百条改动的？我始终希望能通过玩家的研究导致战术变革，而非粗暴的改动导向。遗憾的这种想法的实现代价巨大，或许只有暴雪的游戏能部分实现。
刚愎自用，普通玩家的抱怨不听就算了，多少职业选手和顶级教练都指出问题所在了，还用我不听的态度一意孤行，等第二个风暴英雄出现了才开始补救的话就太晚了
暴雪：亲爱的玩家 我是你爹
猩猩没问题啊，你不会接猩猩，就说猩猩IMBA，你看miro跳，每次都哇哇叫，高端局猩猩无法为所欲为
说白了姐夫一直就很推崇放狗，放狗强在机动性，之前夺旗模式出来的时候他就说的很清楚了，机动性是守望区别于其他游戏的特点，不会去加以限制，因为那样很不守望